Toward the end of my 18-year starter marriage, my then-husband and I sat down and asked each other what the other wanted. What I wanted: for him to be happy and accept me the way I am. What he wanted: for us not to run out of toilet paper. Second marriage of 27 years was a marriage in which I felt cherished, my dreams and ambitions supported, encouragement to grow and be all I could be while he did the same. As Ann mentioned, the first year was the toughest: there were times when I gave the neighbors credit for not calling the police we would fight so much. Since I grew up in Italy, my style of fighting was loud! But with time and understanding, it became clear that this was our not-so-calm way of trying to maintain our hard-won independence when the "urge to merge" was so strong, and at some point we realized that we were both on the same "team" and could maintain our individuality while being together. Then there was magic.
Wonderful piece Avivah. Tell me: how can I access your TED talk?
Wonderful story. I'm curious about the 'first year' struggles of both you and Ann. You struggling to be heard in the style to which you had become accustomed, her a much younger version of herself. It's great to share with newlyweds (or newly coupled) of all ages, that the beginning is the tough alignment part, and paves the way for mutually enhancing harmony. (Although I didn't find that in my own two beginnings). Magic is merited and worked for. It doesn't just happen.
Aristotle is quoted as saying, “Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.” But to know yourself, you need a reflection. And those couples who master their mutual ability to support, nurture, and communicate with their spouse in ways that foster self-reflection are the ones who succeed. If I grow with my partner, I stay with that partner.
Beautiful. I remember quoting Aristotle in my first wedding ceremony... I find there are a lot of couples where one half if eager to learn, self-reflect and exchange. And the other not. The skill of getting another person to engage against their initial resistance isn't widespread. Then you are faced with the awful conundrum: self-awareness vs. stonewalling or withdrawal. What's an elders response Marc?
The resistance you encounter is where you have to change, not them. Another element to a successful relationship, at least in my view, is standing on the foundation of "I am accountable to the relationship working, not her."
If you can't be accountable, then you'll easily fall into blame, fault, judgment, assessment, 'make wrongs' trap, causing rough waters. If you are unable to be accountable for your relationship working, then you can't "cause it" to work.
Well, I've listened to a lot of people (mostly women) over the years, trying to change themselves first. I did years of that. I'd push back on some of the vocabulary. You don't 'cause it' to work, you invite, reach out, question and self-question. But in the end, it takes two to make a relationship work. And if two people aren't accountable, that sounds like a pretty strange accounting system to me Marc.
I never claim to be a role model for anyone and I also never claim that my relationships are the model for anyone either, BUT I want to stand up for the richness in those of us couples who married young and are still together. Perhaps some (many?) do get stuck in their ways, but that is not necessary and not what I experience. I wrote, as you know, about what makes a marriage work, using not my own words but those of my husband (see https://arichardson.substack.com/p/what-makes-a-marriage-work-your-views) and it is all about constantly listening to and learning from each other.
After 63 years (in two+ weeks), we know each other extremely well, of course, but part of that is recognising when and how each of us is changing and growing and, indeed, encouraging that growth. A long marriage does not need to be a stale one, whether talking about the chores or the more interesting question of sex or any other aspect of life together. It's certainly a bit of luck when you get it right first time – and I don't think either of us had a clue 63 years ago – but I wouldn't change my man for the world.
Yes, and you are definitely a Q3 and Q4 role model, Ann! I wish I could say I know a lot of couples like yours. Do you? It would certainly be preferable to nourish the kind of long, deep, enriching relationship that six decades of shared life must yield. I would have longed for such a thing. Most of us do. Yet so few seem to find it, or know how to navigate and keep feeding it. Congrats on being two humans who have.
Yes, I do know a number of such couples (do we attract each other? Interesting question, DK the answer). I know couples in Italy, France, UK, US all very happily married for 40-60 years, one of whom met in school and others, like us, at university or just after. Of course, you never know with any certainty what goes on within marriages, but when you know a woman with some intimacy or know the couple over tens of years, you have a damn good idea.
Actually, the first few years are hard (especially when you are young and not clear where you are going), but after 15-20 years or so, it is all pretty smooth sailing. We encourage each other, ask the other to nag us about something when we're not doing it (husband used to say it was my fault that he didn't exercise, because I didn't nag hard enough) but mostly just have fun and thoughtful conversations and all the other stuff and it's pretty easy. I am reluctant to accept congratulations - to me, it is like congratulating me for having a long friendship, of which I also have number.
However, I will add that in the first year, which was definitely the hardest, there was a moment when I wondered if I had made a dreadful mistake and contemplated divorce. But that would have proved my mother right, which was ABSOLUTELY not what I was willing to do, so we soldiered on and things got better and better!
Actually I do think you attract each other. Like attracts like. Like assortative mating, there is a similar sorting in friendship. My ex and I didn’t know anyone who divorced until we separated when I was 50 after 22 years of marriage. That’s actually the period with the greatest increase in divorce rates: Q3.
I think there is a lot of assortative aspects to friendship, but I am not at all sure that marital status is one. I have had loads of friends who are divorced, in a later relationship, gay etc etc. - in other words, the full spectrum. Sounds like a good topic for a PhD thesis.
Toward the end of my 18-year starter marriage, my then-husband and I sat down and asked each other what the other wanted. What I wanted: for him to be happy and accept me the way I am. What he wanted: for us not to run out of toilet paper. Second marriage of 27 years was a marriage in which I felt cherished, my dreams and ambitions supported, encouragement to grow and be all I could be while he did the same. As Ann mentioned, the first year was the toughest: there were times when I gave the neighbors credit for not calling the police we would fight so much. Since I grew up in Italy, my style of fighting was loud! But with time and understanding, it became clear that this was our not-so-calm way of trying to maintain our hard-won independence when the "urge to merge" was so strong, and at some point we realized that we were both on the same "team" and could maintain our individuality while being together. Then there was magic.
Wonderful piece Avivah. Tell me: how can I access your TED talk?
Wonderful story. I'm curious about the 'first year' struggles of both you and Ann. You struggling to be heard in the style to which you had become accustomed, her a much younger version of herself. It's great to share with newlyweds (or newly coupled) of all ages, that the beginning is the tough alignment part, and paves the way for mutually enhancing harmony. (Although I didn't find that in my own two beginnings). Magic is merited and worked for. It doesn't just happen.
Here's the link to the TED talk on Conscious Coupling: https://www.ted.com/talks/avivah_wittenberg_cox_conscious_coupling_managing_dual_careers
Aristotle is quoted as saying, “Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.” But to know yourself, you need a reflection. And those couples who master their mutual ability to support, nurture, and communicate with their spouse in ways that foster self-reflection are the ones who succeed. If I grow with my partner, I stay with that partner.
Beautiful. I remember quoting Aristotle in my first wedding ceremony... I find there are a lot of couples where one half if eager to learn, self-reflect and exchange. And the other not. The skill of getting another person to engage against their initial resistance isn't widespread. Then you are faced with the awful conundrum: self-awareness vs. stonewalling or withdrawal. What's an elders response Marc?
The resistance you encounter is where you have to change, not them. Another element to a successful relationship, at least in my view, is standing on the foundation of "I am accountable to the relationship working, not her."
If you can't be accountable, then you'll easily fall into blame, fault, judgment, assessment, 'make wrongs' trap, causing rough waters. If you are unable to be accountable for your relationship working, then you can't "cause it" to work.
Well, I've listened to a lot of people (mostly women) over the years, trying to change themselves first. I did years of that. I'd push back on some of the vocabulary. You don't 'cause it' to work, you invite, reach out, question and self-question. But in the end, it takes two to make a relationship work. And if two people aren't accountable, that sounds like a pretty strange accounting system to me Marc.
I never claim to be a role model for anyone and I also never claim that my relationships are the model for anyone either, BUT I want to stand up for the richness in those of us couples who married young and are still together. Perhaps some (many?) do get stuck in their ways, but that is not necessary and not what I experience. I wrote, as you know, about what makes a marriage work, using not my own words but those of my husband (see https://arichardson.substack.com/p/what-makes-a-marriage-work-your-views) and it is all about constantly listening to and learning from each other.
After 63 years (in two+ weeks), we know each other extremely well, of course, but part of that is recognising when and how each of us is changing and growing and, indeed, encouraging that growth. A long marriage does not need to be a stale one, whether talking about the chores or the more interesting question of sex or any other aspect of life together. It's certainly a bit of luck when you get it right first time – and I don't think either of us had a clue 63 years ago – but I wouldn't change my man for the world.
Yes, and you are definitely a Q3 and Q4 role model, Ann! I wish I could say I know a lot of couples like yours. Do you? It would certainly be preferable to nourish the kind of long, deep, enriching relationship that six decades of shared life must yield. I would have longed for such a thing. Most of us do. Yet so few seem to find it, or know how to navigate and keep feeding it. Congrats on being two humans who have.
Yes, I do know a number of such couples (do we attract each other? Interesting question, DK the answer). I know couples in Italy, France, UK, US all very happily married for 40-60 years, one of whom met in school and others, like us, at university or just after. Of course, you never know with any certainty what goes on within marriages, but when you know a woman with some intimacy or know the couple over tens of years, you have a damn good idea.
Actually, the first few years are hard (especially when you are young and not clear where you are going), but after 15-20 years or so, it is all pretty smooth sailing. We encourage each other, ask the other to nag us about something when we're not doing it (husband used to say it was my fault that he didn't exercise, because I didn't nag hard enough) but mostly just have fun and thoughtful conversations and all the other stuff and it's pretty easy. I am reluctant to accept congratulations - to me, it is like congratulating me for having a long friendship, of which I also have number.
However, I will add that in the first year, which was definitely the hardest, there was a moment when I wondered if I had made a dreadful mistake and contemplated divorce. But that would have proved my mother right, which was ABSOLUTELY not what I was willing to do, so we soldiered on and things got better and better!
Actually I do think you attract each other. Like attracts like. Like assortative mating, there is a similar sorting in friendship. My ex and I didn’t know anyone who divorced until we separated when I was 50 after 22 years of marriage. That’s actually the period with the greatest increase in divorce rates: Q3.
I think there is a lot of assortative aspects to friendship, but I am not at all sure that marital status is one. I have had loads of friends who are divorced, in a later relationship, gay etc etc. - in other words, the full spectrum. Sounds like a good topic for a PhD thesis.